PATRICIA KARVELAS: Anthony Albanese revealed ASIO suspects that Iran directed two anti-semitic attacks on Australian soil. The IRGC will also be listed as a terrorist organisation. Are these the right decisions?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Yes, they are and I want to congratulate ASIO and its officers and the AFP for this successful investigation and to the government for taking the prompt and correct action in expelling the Iranian Ambassador. But it’s very important... some people have criticised the government for not doing enough to counter anti-semitism, and this is an example of them doing exactly what they should do.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: The revelations are of course, quite disturbing. We've got basically a foreign government intervening into our own social cohesion, really, in this country. It's pretty breathtaking stuff.
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Yes
PATRICIA KARVELAS: In terms of, though, the sponsoring of this sort of behaviour, what are we to make of the way that this has unfolded in terms of sowing the seeds of anti-semitism here in Australia or turning Australians against each other like this?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, look, I think we've got to be very clear about this, atleast these anti-semitic acts that we're talking about here, the attack on the delicatessen and the attack on the synagogue in Melbourne, this was not the work of Australians. There may have been some Australians that were being paid to do it, criminals no doubt. But I think we are a harmonious, multicultural society and we disagree on many things, but Australians, and you may recall I made this point, as did other former prime ministers shortly after the October 7 attack, it is vital that we do not import these conflicts from the Middle East into Australia or from anywhere. And I think by and large, we've been very successful in doing that. And so what you've got is a foreign actor, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, seeking to disturb the harmony of Australia in perpetrating these anti-semitic acts, these terrible crimes, and in doing so trying to divide Australians, and of course, terrorise the Jewish community. We have to have zero tolerance for this, and I think the government is doing exactly what it should be doing. That's why, of course, the opposition, not known for giving bouquets to the government, has endorsed what Albanese has done unequivocally.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Look, I want to get to the opposition in a moment, but just still on these big international issues, Australia is, also very recently, acknowledged and we will at the UN, of course, Palestinian statehood. That's been either cheered or condemned, depends on your point of view. Do you think it's been the right call?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, look, it's not a call that my government took, and there are very good arguments for not recognising Palestine as a state, regardless of what you think about the cause of the Palestinians. They clearly do deserve a state of their own, and they do deserve to be protected from the violence that they're suffering from at the moment. But, the problem with Palestine is that it isn't in control of its borders, it's effectively occupied territory, so you can make a lawyer's argument, and a very good one, for not recognising it as a state. I think countries that have done so, and most countries in the world have done so, and now Australia is joining them, are doing so as a sign of solidarity for the Palestinian people and a sign of saying to them and to the world, we believe that you are entitled to have a state of your own. We believe in the two state solution. So you can say it's a gesture, you can say it's political, but it's an approach, a viewpoint, a position that has been taken by the overwhelming majority of countries represented in the United Nations.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And do you see it as something that's worthy of trying? I mean, one of the points that the Foreign Minister made is there won't be any Palestine to recognise if they don't act now.
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, one of the big problems we've got…
When I was Prime Minister, and you know I dealt with Bibi Netanyahu quite regularly, I know him quite well in fact, at least at that time, the Israeli government that he led, their official position was to support a two state solution. That is no longer the case. So, in fact, the Israeli government is taking steps with the new developments in the West Bank that the Australian government and most other governments have condemned, to ensure that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank. So, we're in a very curious position where the bulk of the world is saying the solution is a two state solution - two states living side by side in peace - and we've all aspired to that, but the Israelis, the Israeli government is saying no that is not realistic.
Now, being really hardheaded about it, you can understand why they're saying that, but it is a very big, it's a really big change. And so we’re now in this situation, are we now expected as part of the global community, as friends of Israel, are we expected to support an indefinite occupation, military occupation, of the Palestinian people? This change in approach by Israel is very profound and you have people in the Israeli government, Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, most notoriously, who are absolutely vehemently opposed to giving any further autonomy to the Palestinians. And, are frankly saying they want the Palestinians to be removed from Gaza, for example. Now, these are massive changes. You can understand in the pressure of war, that these big changes happen, but I do worry that we're here in Australia saying we support a two state solution, but is there really any longer any realistic prospect of one being achieved given the position of the parties as they now stand?
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just two brief ones, new report from the CSIS says should AUKUS fail or be scrapped the United States would become less capable in the Indo-Pacific. Its defence posture and diplomatic presence would become less deeply embedded. Its international credibility would be dramatically undercut. Deterrence would be undermined and so it goes on. You're an AUKUS critic. Do you agree that, in fact, the US needs AUKUS to operate, given its own position in this region and what it needs to do in the Indo Pacific?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, no not really. Look, this report by the CSIS, which is a big think tank in Washington, really confirms the concerns that I've been expressing and others have been expressing for some years now. I mean, how many times have you heard people saying it is unrealistic or unfair to suggest that the Americans will not be able to spare any Virginia class submarines, because they're not producing enough in their own industry, their Navy doesn't have enough submarines? That report says that is an entirely reasonable concern.
The report makes it clear that AUKUS Pillar 2 is achieving nothing at the moment. And, again, a problem that none of the three countries have been funding it. It's been criticised as essentially involving a bunch of science experiments. And so there you've got one of the most influential think tanks in Washington saying AUKUS Pillar 2, and this by the way is four years into AUKUS, has actually got to focus on some achievable worthwhile outcomes.
So, you could look at that report as being a sort of cry of desperation from the people who've supported AUKUS saying the Americans must do everything they can to support it, you know, everyone's got a vested interest in supporting it. Look, I think the problem with this deal, and I'm not anti-AUKUS, people try to turn it into a pro-AUKUS or anti AUKUS, I'm pro Australian. My concern is that it's not a good deal for Australia, and the way we're going, and this report confirms it, is we're very likely to end up with no submarines and have less sovereignty and less security.
** ENDS**
WATCH THE INTERVIEW HERE: Afternoon Briefing: Tuesday 26/8/2025 : ABC iview