Interview Transcript: Sally Sara interviews Malcolm Turnbull
ABC Radio National Breakfast 25/5/26
Listen to the interview here: Malcolm Turnbull not aware of 'concrete' plans to start new political party - ABC listen
SALLY SARA: In the headlines today, the Teals are talking — and not just as crossbenchers. They're talking about the prospect of perhaps forming a political party. Earlier on Breakfast, you heard independent member for Warringah, Zali Steggall.
ZALI STEGGALL (CLIP): You know, there are conversations. That's about all I can say at this point.
SALLY SARA (CLIP): What does that mean?
ZALI STEGGALL (CLIP): Ah, it just means that there are conversations. I'm consulting with my community, looking at what the options are, how to… There's a lot of speculation in the media - not all of it correct, may I say.
SALLY SARA: That's Zali Steggall speaking on Breakfast earlier. Well, there've also been some reports this morning that former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is engaging in some of these talks, which Zali Steggall has said is not correct. Malcolm Turnbull joins me now. Malcolm Turnbull, welcome back to Breakfast.
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Yeah, thanks, Sally. Good to be with you.
SALLY SARA: Are you involved in any of these talks with some of the independents?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, no, not in terms of setting up a new party. I think there is a vacuum in Australian politics at the moment, because the Liberal Party has moved so far to the right, and in doing so is diminishing and it's done itself enormous damage. So at the moment, there's only one major party that you could describe as a centre party, which is the Labor Party. And I think there is a vacuum for an alternative centre party. Now, the Teals would be obvious people to be part of that, or to do that, and I've talked to them about that publicly I mean, going back some years. But whether they actually decide to do so is up to them. So I'm not involved with any plans to set something up.
SALLY SARA: Have you been speaking with some of the Teals individually about the political climate and whether a party might be a prospect?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Well, look, I talk to a lot of people. I'm not actively involved in politics at all. But I certainly talk to people like Allegra Spender, I have spoken to Zali in the past, and spoken to others. And I gave a speech at a forum organised by Monique Ryan in Melbourne not so long ago. So there is absolutely an opportunity there. People feel the Liberal Party has moved away from the centre. That is why the Teals were elected. And the more the Liberal Party tries to chase and emulate and copy One Nation, the more it builds up the vote for One Nation. Because if you're the Liberal Party leader, or the Liberal Party, and you essentially legitimise and validate One Nation's platform, people will always go for the real deal. And this is exactly the mistake that the Tories have made in the UK with Reform. In fact, I was talking to Nigel Farage about this in London just recently. It's a real phenomenon. If centre-right parties abandon the centre, they will get overwhelmed by the party that is to their right. So it's a mistake happening in both countries - in the UK and Australia - and in each case, the traditional centre-right party, Conservatives in the UK, Liberals in Australia, are seeing their vote dwindle at the expense of a competitor on the populist right.
SALLY SARA: Have you had any discussions with current or former moderate Liberals about some kind of new party, or are you aware of discussions between current and former moderate Liberals with the independents?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: I'm not aware of those, but I wouldn't be surprised. People talk about this sort of stuff all the time. But I don't think there is anything - well, if there's something concrete being organised, I'm not aware of it. I certainly think it would be healthy. I think our democracy is better, [and] our electoral system, Sally, as you know, with compulsory preferential voting, drives politics to the centre. So Australians historically have preferred to see contest to be at the centre, and there is clearly a vacuum there. I mean, as Albanese has said, and he's absolutely right, the only major party that's sitting in the centre of Australian politics today is the Labor Party. There used to be the Labor Party and the Liberal Party, the Liberal Party has absented itself, much to its cost.
SALLY SARA: Have you been making any approaches to any of the independents at all?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: I don't know what you mean by approaches, but I certainly talk to them. I mean, I talk to lots of people. I talk to the Prime Minister, I talk to the Treasurer, I talk to people right across the board. I'm a citizen of Australia, I'm interested in politics, and for some reason or other, people take my calls. So I'm always happy to have a chat.
SALLY SARA: How much do you think the new electoral funding laws are guiding the thinking here, and does that kind of bring things to a bit of a head?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: I don't know. I think you'd have to ask the Teals that, or the independents about that. I thought the electoral funding laws were skewed against independents, and I thought that was a mistake. There's something rather unpalatable, something ugly, frankly, when you see the Labor and the Liberal parties combining to agree on funding laws which suit them, as opposed to any rival smaller parties or independents. One of the great things about our politics is that the preferential voting system does allow independents and smaller parties to come up through the middle and hold the larger parties to account. You can look at the United States, where there's an entrenched two-party system, and you can see all of the problems that entails. So we should be encouraging more competition in our political system, not less. And if the funding laws do diminish competition, that's been a very bad move.
SALLY SARA: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast, and you're hearing from former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. Another former Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, is the new Liberal Party president. What do you think of that decision?
MALCOLM TURNBULL: What - for the party, or for Tony?
SALLY SARA: Oh, let's go for both.
MALCOLM TURNBULL: For Tony - he's clearly a masochist. But anyway, he's got a strong commitment to politics, so good on him. For the Liberal Party, I think the problem is that if you look at what Tony has been saying, and what Peta Credlin has been saying, and the News Corp columnists that are close to them are saying, is they're basically arguing that the Liberal Party's mistake has been not being right-wing enough. They've been saying this despite every election sending them the message that a significant part of the electorate feels they have gone too far to the right. I mean, these Teals, there's six or seven of them — holding what had been safe Liberal seats, all women, all progressive on climate, all progressive on social issues, all fairly centrist, sensible, you might say somewhat conservative on economics. The fact that they're elected tells you something that voters are seeing is lacking in the Liberal Party. Now, the rational reaction to that is to say: whoa, that's a message from the electorate, we'd better steer back to the centre. But instead, they keep steering further to the right, and now they are not the largest party if the polls are right on the right of politics. They're the second largest. They've been outflanked by One Nation. Insanity, the definition of that is when you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result, and this constant move to the populist right is only building up One Nation. I mean, they are literally feeding that political party, because every time they copy their policies, they're validating their approach. The Liberal Party's got to steer back to the centre and focus on economic management. It's got to focus on things like innovation, on productivity, on growing the economy, and stay out of the culture wars. They've got to stop thinking that winning the approval of the audience of Sky News After Dark is the key priority. The priority is winning the support of over 50 per cent of the Australian public.
SALLY SARA: Malcolm Turnbull, thank you for joining me again on Radio National Breakfast.
MALCOLM TURNBULL: Many thanks. Thanks so much, Sally.
**ends**
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