TONY JONES
Good evening, and welcome to Q&A. I’m Tony Jones. Please welcome our special guest, Malcolm Turnbull.
Thank you very much. Q&A is live in eastern Australia on ABC TV, ABC News, iview, and NewsRadio.
Well, leadership coups have become a regular feature of Australian politics. No elected prime minister has served a full term since John Howard more than a decade ago. Tonight is Malcolm Turnbull’s first significant media appearance since he was toppled by his party exactly 11 weeks ago. He’s chosen to answer your questions – questions from ordinary citizens of the Q&A audience. Well, they’ve got a lot of questions. Let’s go to our first one. It’s from Steven Querruell.
STEVEN QUERRUELL
Good evening, Tony. G’day, Malcolm.
MALCOLM TURNBULL, FORMER PRIME MINISTER
Hey, Steven. How are you?
STEVEN QUERRUELL
Well, thank you for the public service that you gave us. Uh, I didn’t vote for you, but that’s OK. It’s all good.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
It’s alright.
STEVEN QUERRUELL
Australian politics can be a brutal, almost futile business. It seems the day you become prime minister is the day you come close to becoming an ex-prime minister. So, given that the economy is ticking along nicely, unemployment rates are at decade-long lows, business confidence is high, and a chance of the mythical budget surplus next year, can you answer the question your apparently accidental successor is unwilling or unable to answer – why aren’t you still prime minister?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, thanks, Steven. And that’s the question I can’t answer, of course. The only people that can answer that are the people that engineered the coup. They’re people like Peter Dutton and Tony Abbott and Greg Hunt and Mathias Cormann, the people who voted for the spill. So, there are 45 of them. Most of them are well-known. There are no bones about who they are. They have to answer that question. I can’t answer it.
From my own point of view, I described it at the time as “madness”. All of the points you made are right. The economy was strong. It’s one of the things I’m most proud of. When I became prime minister, I said I would deliver economic leadership. In the 2016 election, I campaigned on delivering jobs and growth. And we delivered both – record jobs growth, the strongest jobs growth, in fact, in our nation’s history. Strong economic growth, the envy of the developed world. By any measure, we’ve achieved enormous economic progress. You know, great achievements in the trade arena internationally... I’m sure we’ll come to that. So, you’re right. The government had achieved an enormous amount, much more than I thought would be possible, given that we didn’t have anything like a majority in the Senate – we were in a minority there – and we only had a one-seat majority in the House.
So, I was very proud to be able to do as much as I was as prime minister, and I want to thank, again, the Australian people for giving me the opportunity of leading this remarkable nation for nearly three years, and I want to thank all of my colleagues for their support that enabled me to achieve so much. But as to why a number of them chose to blow the government up at the time they did, you’ve really got to ask them.
TONY JONES
Malcolm, quick follow-up – at your last press conference in Canberra, you referred to the polls, you said you were just behind in the published polls.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yep.
TONY JONES
But in your own polls, you were a little bit ahead. In a speech in New York, you said the internal Liberal Party polling showed you were four points ahead in 40 marginal seats.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yep.
TONY JONES
Did the party room have that information?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, everyone knew about it. It was... Just to explain to everyone. The published polls, you know, whether it’s Newspoll or the Ipsos poll or, you know, the Essential poll that you see in The Guardian, they are all polls of the whole nation. What political parties do is they poll the marginal seats, because that’s where the elections are decided. So, we typically poll 40 marginal seats, the government’s 20 most marginal seats and the opposition’s 20 most marginal seats. So, the seats you need to hold and the seats you want to win, basically. So, in our own polling, we were, in the August poll, August track, which is what we call it, we were 52-48 ahead. And in the published polls, as everyone knows, we were 51-49 behind. Which is effectively level pegging. So, there’s no question the government was doing well. We were thoroughly competitive. And we were in a position where we had every chance, every prospect, of being able to win the election.
TONY JONES
Just quickly – are you getting any feedback at all that there are those who voted against you who are having regrets now?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Uh... Well, I couldn’t possibly comment. But, look...
TONY JONES
So, that’s “yes” but you can’t say so...?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Look, you know, the reality is, people have got to be adults and be accountable, OK? And so, when you elect someone to be a member of parliament, you’re reposing in them a very solemn and very sacred responsibility. And they have to stand up and be prepared to say why they do things, why they vote for things. And so, the people who chose to act in what I thought was a very...was madness, a very self-destructive way, to blow up the government, to bring my prime ministership to an end, they need to really explain why they did it. And none of them have.
TONY JONES
Let’s move on. A lot of people with questions. Milly Waldren has our next question. Go ahead, Milly.
MILLY WALDREN
With the benefit of hindsight, could you have done anything differently to protect yourself and your position against agitators such as Peter Dutton or Tony Abbott?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Uh... Well, I’m sure there would be, but I’m not sure what that would be. I mean, you know, I ran a very traditional cabinet government. It was very consultative. You know, I’d learnt from my first time as leader in opposition, I’d learnt from the example of predecessors as prime minister, so I ran a very consultative cabinet government, and I don’t think anyone argues with that. So we followed process and made sure that we had an inclusive process. So, for example, with the National Energy Guarantee, it had gone through the cabinet at least three times, it had gone through the party room several times... I was very careful to make sure that I brought the party together. One of the most important things, as leader, is to keep the party together. But obviously, if people...
TONY JONES
There were cabinet ministers who voted against you in the first spill.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I know.
TONY JONES
I mean, how much of a shock was that? Did you see that coming?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
No, I did not anticipate that people would act…particularly cabinet ministers, would act so self-destructively. You know, Paul Keating had a great saying, I think it was Jack Lang’s originally, that in the great race of life, always back self-interest, because you know it’s trying. Which is, you know, put another way, that people will normally act in their own self-interest.
Now, they might get it wrong, of course. They might be mistaken as to what’s in their self-interest, but it was so obvious that the coup, the insurgency, that occurred in the last part of August…was so obvious that it was going to be destructive, it was so obvious that there was not going to be any upside to it. And, of course, that’s what’s turned out.
I... It never... It really never occurred to me that senior members of the government, particularly people with such solemn responsibilities – you know, Peter Dutton’s the Home Affairs Minister, responsible for Australia’s national security, for heaven’s sake, domestic security, Mathias Cormann, you know, the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Greg Hunt, the Health Minister, Steven Ciobo, our Trade Minister...
TONY JONES
Who you promoted into cabinet
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Sure, and there’s plenty of others. But it never occurred to me that those people would act in a way that was going to be so damaging both to the government, to the party, you know, and frankly, to the nation. I mean, stability is very important. And disturbing that stability should only be done with a very clear justification and a very clear purpose. And even then, it carries risks.
TONY JONES
The risks are obvious. I’m just going to ask one. I mean, has it killed off their chances of winning government again?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, look, I mean, I wish Scott all the best in the election, I really do. No, he has... He has... OK, well, let me put something right on the table right at the outset. There is a media narrative which goes like this – “Prime Minister is deposed by his colleagues. The deposed Prime Minister then goes off and plots to bring down his successor and overthrow him,” right? And the media will write that story whether the facts fit it or not. Now, what I have done is quite the opposite. I have left the parliament. So, I can’t be a threat to Scott Morrison or anyone else. I’m not even in the parliament. I’m not in the party room anymore. I have had... As you observed at the outset, I’ve had little or nothing to say since I gave my, you know, farewell remarks in the Prime Minister’s Courtyard. In fact, of course, which were well summed up, as so many people have written to me to say. I’ve had hundreds and hundreds of letters, I might say, many of which have been very moving, but one common theme was that our grandson, Jack, spoke for the whole nation at the end of my speech. After that, I’ve had very little to say. And I’ve done that deliberately because I wanted to give Scott all the clear air to do his own thing. He has dealt himself a very tough hand of cards, and now he has to play them. But he’s the Prime Minister, and he has to get on with it.
TONY JONES
We’ve got a question about him. It’s from Toby Buchanan. Go ahead.
TOBY BUCHANAN
Thank you for your service anyway, Prime Minister. Former prime minister, I do apologise. I want to know – what role did the Prime Minister play in your ousting? Is ScoMo a Steven Bradbury, or a Niccolo Machiavelli?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Um...well, look, he... I take Scott at his word. The insurgency was, uh...was, uh...was led by Peter Dutton, was obviously strongly supported by Tony Abbott and others. Uh, Scott did not support it. Uh, and he’s said that publicly. So, you know, I... By Steven Bradbury, I assume you mean he took advantage of a situation that was created by others. Well, I suppose, you know, that is how he’s presented the circumstances himself, and I’m not in a position to contradict that or question that.
TONY JONES
You don’t look back at that moment where he put his arm around you and professed openly his loyalty, only to become prime minister two days later?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, he’s very tactile and friendly. And he’s only human!
TONY JONES
Let me... Toby, you have another question. Go ahead, Toby.
TOBY BUCHANAN
I just find that really doubtful. Do you think people become prime minister by accident, speaking from experience?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, it certainly wasn’t an accident on my part, but... Well, I... Look, what happened was that the insurgents, you know, Dutton, Abbott, supported by Cormann, Fifield and Cash and Hunt and Ciobo and Michael Keenan and Angus Taylor – there’s a long list of them – they effectively blew up the government. And that created a situation of enormous instability. We... That created the... What happens in a party room, to be clear about this, is that people become frightened, and they become intimidated and bullied. And they’re frightened that the destabilisation is going to continue. And so there are some people who would have voted for the spill, not because they wanted me to stop being prime minister, but they wanted the destabilisation to stop. Now, my view is you do not give in to bullies. You don’t give in to that intimidation. And I never have. But it is... And, you know, you’ve heard all the accounts. There are so many accounts from people at the time. But that was the sort of...that was the environment.
But, really, in terms of answering why they did it, why they blew up the government of Australia, why they overthrew the prime minister, who was, as we were saying earlier…you know, our government was in a competitive position, doing well. In fact, we were doing the best we had done since the 2016 election, as it happened. Maybe they were worried we’d win the election. Maybe they were not worried we’d lose it, maybe they were worried we’d win it.
TONY JONES
Let me get this one on the table. Do you have any intelligence at all that Morrison-backers were pressuring MPs to vote for Peter Dutton in the first spill to make a second spill inevitable?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I can’t offer you any intelligence in that area at all, no.
TONY JONES
And no-one has come to you with such intelligence?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
No. No, no-one has.
TONY JONES
OK, let’s go to our next question, from Ashutosh Shukla.
ASHUTOSH SHUKLA
Upon your resignation, you mentioned how some strong voices from 2GB and Sky News After Dark had directly influenced parliamentarians and catalysed the insurgency. Has this shaken your faith in traditional forms of media?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
No, it hasn’t shaken my faith in it, but, having said that, I’ve been involved in the media business now for well over 40 years, and so my expectations are very realistic. The media has always played a role in politics. Media players – be they editors or proprietors or commentators – have always sought to exert power, and there is no doubt there was a very consistent campaign waged against me by a number of outlets. You mentioned 2GB, that is one, obviously. Sky News After Dark doesn’t have a very big audience, but... Well, it doesn’t. It doesn’t.
TONY JONES
You include The Australian as part of the News Limited empire?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Some parts of the News Limited empire, not all of it. I mean, many of the tabloid newspapers were very supportive of the government when they thought we were doing a good job. They weren’t sort of consistently seeking to undermine it. But I’ll give you an example. One of my colleagues from Queensland, a man who has been a good friend of mine in the past, and I’ve helped in the past, he explained why he was supporting Peter Dutton to me. And he said, “The problem is with my branch members, my LNP branch members.” He said, “Every night, it is as though the commentators on Sky News during the day, Alan Jones and Ray Hadley, are having a branch meeting with them.” And so, essentially, he felt he was being pressured by his branch members, and he felt he couldn’t resist that pressure.
Now, the problem is – and this is a fundamental problem that the Liberal Party faces – in order to be successful as a political movement, you have to win votes from the centre. The Liberal Party, to succeed, has to be a broad church. And that means that it has to, you know, represent people with small-L liberal views and people with more conservative views. That was Menzies’ broad church, you know, how it’s talked about, and so forth. That is being frayed. And what we’re seeing is voters saying to the Liberal Party, “You are not liberal enough.”
Now, we should reflect on this, and the party – my party, the party I joined in 1973 – has to reflect on this. That there are three really safe – formerly really safe – Liberal seats. Mayo in South Australia, Indi in Victoria, Wentworth now in New South Wales – my old seat. All in very different areas, but forever had been safe, conservative seats, safe Liberal seats. They are now occupied by three independents, who are all women, who are all small-L liberals, and all of whom, in one way or another, have been involved in the Liberal Party in the past, either as being members of the Liberal Party or as having worked for Liberal Party members, and sometimes both.
So what that’s telling you is that the voters are…through voting for these independents, are saying, “We are concerned that the Liberal Party is not speaking for small-L liberal values, for genuinely liberal values, and therefore, we take the matter in our own hands and we put in a liberal Independent.” And that’s what you have in those three seats.
TONY JONES
A quick one – did you complain directly to Rupert Murdoch a few days before the coup about News Limited coverage?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yes, I did, yep, I spoke to Rupert, and I’ve spoken to him and to his son Lachlan, and to...
TONY JONES
Did he tell you it’s Lachlan’s responsibility now? Because that’s what was reported.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yes, he did. He said it was really Lachlan’s responsibility, but he’s always said words to that effect in recent years. I’m not suggesting that isn’t right. But the point that I made to him and to others in News Limited is that this sort of relentless campaign against me, which was very personal and didn’t seem to have any rationale in terms of policy... I mean, what was the government doing? We were reducing taxes, driving economic growth, delivering infrastructure, negotiating trade deals, you know, investing record spending in defence industry. What was the point of policy difference, if you like?
TONY JONES
What did he say to you when you made this case? Because it’s a reasonable case.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, let me say, let me say. Well, he never really... He’d never conceded the point, but the point I always made was, the only beneficiary from this will be Bill Shorten. And Bill Shorten wants to increase taxes, he wants to increase union power. He will reduce investment. And he will put our economic growth, and the jobs growth that we’ve enjoyed, at risk. And so the only beneficiary of this coup – you may think Scott Morrison is a beneficiary of it for a while – but the only beneficiary of this coup, unless there’s a real turnaround, which is possible, is going to be Bill Shorten. And that was the point. My concern was to keep Labor out of government and to keep a strong Liberal government in power that was able to deliver on the economic growth, the jobs, the opportunities that I’d promised and we were delivering.
TONY JONES
Now, one quick one to put on the record – did you speak to Kerry Stokes, and did he tell you that Rupert Murdoch told him, “Malcolm’s got to go”?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yes, I did speak to Kerry, and that’s what he’d said Rupert had said to him. And Kerry said that he had... Kerry Stokes... He’s given an account of this conversation to many people. He said to Rupert, “That’s crazy. You know, Malcolm’s doing well in the polls, he’s way ahead of Bill Shorten. Why would you want Bill Shorten to be prime minister?” To which, according to Kerry, Rupert said, “Oh, well, three years of Labor wouldn’t be so bad.” So, I can’t work that out. I can’t explain that.
TONY JONES
Interesting to see if that’s a headline in the Telegraph tomorrow.
You’re watching this special Q&A with former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull. The next question comes from Millie Gillard.
MILLIE GILLARD
Politics is an aggressive and competitive environment, and numerous women have survived it. However, behaviour such as that exhibited during the recent leadership spill emphasised the challenges that women in politics still face. What is your perspective on the treatment of women in federal politics – specifically the treatment of Julia Banks and Julie Bishop during the leadership spill? And how do you propose it improves for future female politicians?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, Millie, thank you very much. I believe the culture in parliament is not sufficiently respectful of women. It is… As someone who came into parliament from the corporate sector, I’d say it is decades out of date. It’s like stepping into, you know, a business, an office, in the ‘80s. It is very, very blokey, and there is insufficient respect for women, in my judgement. And just about every woman in parliament will confirm that one way or another. And you’ve mentioned a few of them who’ve made that point.
You have to lead by example. I sought to do so. I have done so. And you have to speak up for respect for women. And one of the points that Lucy made very succinctly, which I’ve always quoted, again and again – in fact, it formed part of a government advertising campaign in respect of violence against women and children – is to say that not all disrespecting women leads to violence against women, but that is where all violence against women begins. So, this… At the foundation, in workplaces.
This is why I introduced the so-called ‘bonking ban’. You would think you wouldn’t need to do it, wouldn’t you? You know, really, you’d think it would be pretty obvious. But what I set out to do was to ensure that parliament, as a workplace, was respecting women in the way that a modern workplace is expected to do. And I think there’s still work to do, but I think that – you know, I can say this to you – that Scott Morrison absolutely shares my values on this. Scott and I talked about the change to ministerial code...
TONY JONES
Sorry, I’ve got to bring you to...
MALCOLM TURNBULL
...and he entirely...he absolutely endorsed it, absolutely endorsed it.
TONY JONES
I’m going to bring you to the end of the question, which is about the way women – you talked about this at the beginning a little bit – about the way women were bullied during the spill lobbying, during the coup, effectively. Of course, we don’t know the details of what happened, because most of the investigation of that happened secretly. Should it be out there in the open?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, you know... Everything in parliament should be accountable, right? I mean, everyone is there, elected by the people. They’re paid by the taxpayer. Just as, you know, people are entitled to know why those who voted for the spill – particularly those who led it, particularly the cabinet ministers – they’re entitled to know why they did it, so people are entitled to know what happened in the course of these events. I mean, you can’t just dismiss it as, you know, something to be brushed under the carpet.
But can I just make this point? I know that, naturally, there is a huge focus on this. I understand that. You know, so many people have asked me the question. They’ve asked me a question I can’t answer, right? “Why did it happen?” But I just want to say to you that leading Australia for nearly three years as prime minister was an enormous privilege, and I celebrate and I’m proud of the achievements I was able to make. So I’m not, you know, miserable or bitter or resentful at all. I’m joyful that I had the opportunity to take on that role and do as much as I did in the time that I had. Because I think right at the outset, the first questioner said, “You know, when you become prime minister, you’re one day closer to the time you cease to be prime minister.” Well, that’s true regardless of how you leave office, obviously! So you’ve got to do the best you can in the time you have. And I got an enormous amount done. You know, think of the big social reforms. Legalising same-sex marriage. I mean, what a gigantic reform that was. I was able to do that. Look at the steps I was able to take...
TONY JONES
Malcolm, we’ll come to that in a future question.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
...in terms of trade. I’m very positive about my time in office. It ended sooner than I would like it to have ended, and it ended in circumstances that remain unexplained, but nonetheless, it was a time of great achievement.
TONY JONES
Our next question’s from Jason Potter.
JASON POTTER
G’day, Malcolm.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yes.
JASON POTTER
Considering your involvement in every leadership ballot in the Liberal Party since the Howard government – including two challenges to sitting leaders – do you believe the outcome of your leadership and time as prime minister was fair and just?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I...I think the...the move to remove me in August was crazy. I think it was self-destructive. It’s... No-one’s explained it. It’s... It was pointless. Um, it’s... And nobody’s actually set out what the reason was for it. I mean, Scott Morrison can’t explain it. He’s the new prime minister. I’m the outgoing prime minister. I can’t explain it. And the people that were responsible choose not to do so. So, you know, there are some issues there. But in terms of what the question is – as you measure your own performance as prime minister...you’ve got to ask yourself, “What did I do in the time that I had?”
TONY JONES
No, actually, that’s not what the question was about. I’m going to bring you to the point of it. What’s the difference between the Dutton challenge against you and your challenge against Tony Abbott?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, with Tony Abbott, I set out exactly why I sought to challenge him. I explained what my reasons were very openly, laid out my agenda, won the ballot, and then set out to deliver that agenda. And it was very, very warmly welcomed by the Australian people. I mean, you know, we won the next election and we got enormous support, so... And we got a lot done. So, from my point of view, I had a justification, which I was open about, an agenda – an economic agenda – and, you know, taking a more positive approach, you know, to our society – a more inclusive approach. A number of other things that I changed. But the bottom line is I delivered on it, and I’m pleased that I did and proud that I did.
TONY JONES
Peter Dutton would say he had an agenda, and among other things, he wanted to take the GST off power prices. Um, so he would argue, I guess...
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, he hasn’t... You can say he WOULD argue, but he hasn’t. You say he would. He hasn’t.
TONY JONES
Well, he did at the time.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
No, he said he wanted to take the GST off power prices. That’s hardly... That might be a justification for bringing a submission to cabinet. It’s hardly a justification for overthrowing the government.
TONY JONES
Very good. Next question from Magnus McCormack...McManamey. I beg your pardon.
MAGNUS CORMACK McMANAMEY
Good evening, Malcolm. Um, thanks for being here tonight and fronting the Australian people. It’s a great thing for you to be here, and we appreciate it. I wanted to ask you to reflect on Barnaby Joyce. He’s described as, in some circles, Australia’s greatest retail politician. Um, given the question marks that hang over his head in relationship to misconduct and mismanagement – um, to cite two quick examples, the Murray-Darling scheme, and then, you know, a more obvious catastrophe might be something like putting his toe in the water for a leadership tilt in the lead-up to the Wentworth by-election – is he really one of Australia’s great retail politicians, or perhaps maybe more of a liability to himself, his party, and, more broadly, the Coalition?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I think I should take that as a comment.
MAGNUS CORMACK McMANAMEY
Well, I...
TONY JONES
You get...you get a right of reply, Magnus. Go ahead.
MAGNUS CORMACK McMANAMEY
Thank you. If... I respect the response and... To draw you to Scott Morrison’s remarks about the Australian parliament resembling a Muppet Show at the time of you being deposed, if we were to talk about Barnaby being in the cast, would he be Gonzo or Beaker?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Look, I’m sure Scott regrets that analogy. The Australian parliament is at the centre of our government. It’s where our governments are formed. It’s where our laws are made. And those who go into the Australian parliament should do so solely with the interests of the Australian people in mind. And when they take actions – whether it is voting on a bill or voting in a ballot – they should be prepared to justify it, and I’ve always done that.
TONY JONES
Should Barnaby Joyce have any possibility of coming back as deputy prime minister, in your opinion?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I’m not a member of the National Party, so that’s a matter for them.
TONY JONES
But would it be a logical thing?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, it’s a matter for the National Party to choose their own leader. And the Coalition, if we’re in government, the leader of the National Party is the deputy prime minister. So, if you’re asking me the question, “Were Barnaby to be re-elected leader of the National Party, um, would he become deputy prime minister?” the answer is yes. As to whether he would ever be re-elected leader of the National Party, that’s a matter for the Nationals.
But coming to the point you made about Wentworth – in a...in a hard-fought by-election in which the government was arguing that you should vote for the Liberal Party to ensure the maintenance of stability, and climate change was a key issue, I’d have to say that, in the last week, Barnaby foreshadowing his own leadership challenge to Michael McCormack and calling for Snowy Hydro 2.0 to be abandoned and replaced by a coal-fired power station was hardly calculated to advance David Sharma’s prospects.
TONY JONES
I think you have your answer. Here’s a question from Will Jefferies on the Wentworth by-election. Will?
WILL JEFFERIES
Mr Turnbull, why did you fail to show support for your fellow Liberal David Sharma in the Wentworth by-election, and do you acknowledge that this was instrumental not only in the Liberal Party losing a crucial seat it has held for almost a century, but also losing the balance of power in parliament?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, Will, I did support Dave Sharma, and did so publicly, and every single day. In fact, even on Twitter. I mean, Lucy and I gave him our blessing, our endorsement. Um, and every day, Dave and Scott Morrison and others repeated – and the media repeated – that he had our support. So, there was no question that he had our support. Um, the... My judgement was that, given the circumstances, were I to be campaigning in or be particularly visible in any way in the Wentworth by-election, it would be unhelpful to David Sharma’s prospects. It also, frankly, would not have been very helpful for me maintaining my own peace of mind. After an event like this, it’s very important to look after yourself and your family, and it was good and timely for us to step aside and step back at that time.
Um, now, I assume people recognise I’m quite familiar with the electoral arithmetic of Wentworth – a seat I represented for 14 years. My judgement is that Dave Sharma would have won the election, with a reduced majority, obviously – quite substantially reduced – had it been held the Saturday before, on the 13th rather than the 20th. I believe the by-election was lost in the last week. It was a pretty messy week for the government, with announcements and, you know, the vote on the ‘It’s OK to be white’, you know, Pauline Hanson resolution in the Senate. We talked about Barnaby Joyce. There are a number of other things – the announcement of a review as to the location of the Australian Embassy in Israel. All of those things created a very messy week. And if you look at the pattern of the postal votes, which is very interesting, the postal votes that were received by polling day – most of which were posted, naturally, in weeks beforehand – favoured Dave Sharma about 65%. Now, when I was the MP, the last postal share I had was 76%. So, that was a big swing, but not enough to lose the seat. Every package of postal votes that followed, Sharma’s share diminished. And the last 1,400 postal votes actually were won by Kerryn Phelps. So, you can see that what happened in that last week was the swing against the Liberal Party was accentuated and accelerated to the point where Sharma lost the seat by, you know, 1,800 votes or thereabouts.
TONY JONES
Briefly, you’re saying Morrison’s government killed itself off in Wentworth?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
You may very well say that, but I couldn’t possibly comment.
TONY JONES
Let’s go to our next question. It’s from Louise Dunbar.
LOUISE DUNBAR
Mr Turnbull, early on, I thought you had a vision for Australia. I saw you as a potentially great leader, intelligent, and economically wise. I was sadly disappointed with your time in office. You were ineffectual, not able to make the hard decisions, nor confront the media to argue your case, unengaged with the public and biding your time towards the end. I would like you to take responsibility, and not blame anyone else for this. You had the opportunity and you blew it. What do you say to the Australian public?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I’d say that I...I have to say to you that the achievements of the government speak for themselves. Um, record jobs growth. Strong economic growth. Um, reduced personal income tax. Reduced company tax. Record investments in infrastructure. Reformed schools funding. To have consistent, needs-based funding across the country. Reached record funding in health and pharmaceutical benefits. Record funding and support for Australian defence industry. Was able to keep...protect the Australian steel industry and the thousands of jobs from what would have been 25% tariffs to be imposed by Donald Trump – the only country, at the time, to get that exemption. Ensured that the Trans-Pacific Partnership and a huge trade deal that everyone thought was sunk when Trump pulled out, was maintained, protecting thousands of jobs. And legislated to legalise marriage equality.
Now, those are all achievements, most of which people said could not be done. Most of them, I stood when they were being presented in the parliament. The Press... You know, the Press Gallery said to me in the PM’s Courtyard, “You’ll never get it through the Senate,” or, “You won’t be able to do it.” I mean, Bill Shorten, right? He was no friend of free trade. Bill said at the Press Club that my pursuit of the Trans-Pacific Partnership was a delusion and a vanity project. Now, through sheer persistence and commitment to defending and advancing Australia’s interests, I got it done.
TONY JONES
Can we just go back to...?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
So, the bottom line is, that’s my record.
TONY JONES
Can we just go back to the questioner? What was it that you were disappointed about, Louise?
LOUISE DUNBAR
Well, I felt that, with John Howard, for example, he was always arguing his point in the media. He could stand up and argue for whatever he was arguing for. But Malcolm – Mr Turnbull – um, I wish you’d been in the media more. I wish you’d come out and been arguing your point more. All those things that you just mentioned, um, I wish you’d been repeating them over and over so people could get a sense of what you had achieved, but we... You were missing in action towards the end. I don’t think I saw you very much in the media at all.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I...I can assure you, I spent a lot of time, um, in the media and on the media. In fact, it’s...it is the...it is the lot of prime ministers to spend a huge amount of their time in the media and communicating, so... But I’m sorry you missed it. Sorry you did. And you know what? But there’s some old...there’s some old videos. You know, you can go back. Go back on some old showreels.
LOUISE DUNBAR
I will.
TONY JONES
Here’s a quick one for you.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
In the archive.
TONY JONES
The Guardian, when you became prime minister, said, kind of prophetically, “The biggest hurdle now for the Turnbull experiment is the compromises he has to make to achieve his resurrection.” So, those compromises included a deal with the National Party, but it also included, effectively, a deal with the right wing. You’ve talked a little bit about your consensus style, but did that kill off the real Malcolm Turnbull?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, no. I got... I mean, I got so much done, you know? The, uh... The Labor Party used to say, “Oh, Malcolm, you know, used to be in favour of marriage equality. He’s no longer in favour of it.” And then I legislated it, right? So I delivered it. Well, we did. We did.
WOMAN
No, you didn’t.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
It’s legal. 5,000 people have been married. 5,000 same-sex couples have been married in Australia since it was legalised about...just about a year ago, and that was done under my government. Now, you know, that’s... That is a fact. It might be a melancholy fact, from some people’s point of view, but...from the Labor Party’s point of view, ‘cause they would have rather they did it, but it is a great Liberal achievement. A great Liberal achievement, and it was my government that delivered it.
TONY JONES
OK. One of the things that was encompassed in that deal was an agreement not to change climate change policy. We’ve got a question on climate change. We’ll go to that.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yeah.
TONY JONES
We’ll talk about that in a minute.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yeah, OK.
TONY JONES
The next question is a video. It’s from Mike Cannon-Brookes, the co-founder and CEO of Atlassian.
MIKE CANNON-BROOKES
Our current prime minister, who once famously waved a lump of coal at the opposition in parliament, has defined “fair dinkum power” as energy that turns on when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing. Thousands of Aussies – including me – are joining together to redefine “fair dinkum power” to mean renewable energy that is clean, cheap and reliable. Our nation is blessed with renewable resources. We have more sun, wind and hydro than coal, gas and oil resources combined.
Our vision is that Australia can get to 100% renewables and beyond, and that this transition to renewable energy is not only good for the planet, it presents one of the greatest economic opportunities for our country in terms of job creation and economic growth over the next 10 to 20 years. So, my question to you is, what’s your advice to get politicians onboard with our vision, and will you join us?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well...well, thanks. Well, thanks, Mike. I, uh...I think you’ve got to have a technology-agnostic approach to energy. We all know where our energy future lies. It lies with renewable energy, backed up with storage, you know, whether it is batteries or pumped hydro, which has been one of my great passions. You know, and there are other technologies. But that’s where we’re going. We’re heading to a lower-cost, zero-emission energy future. Now, the challenge is, how do you get there without energy becoming unaffordable or unreliable? Put it another way – how do you get there without going broke or the lights going out? And so that’s why I’ve always said energy policy should be guided by engineering and economics, not ideology and idiocy.
But the point Mike makes about our renewable endowment is absolutely right. I mean, you look at solar, for example – solar PV. The central element in a photovoltaic panel – the solar module, PV module – the cost of that has come down tenfold since 2010. So, the cost of generating solar power keeps on coming down. And by the way, thanks to technology developed at the University of New South Wales, it’s going to come down even more. So, we are going to... We are in a position, with this enormous solar endowment, where we will have a huge amount of energy opportunities.
But here’s the thing – it’s very quick to build a solar farm. If you have the planning permission and all the consents, if you have an allen key, a post-hole digger and a cement mixer, you can build your solar farm in less than 12 months, if you order all the panels and so forth. It’s all completely modularised. You know, it’s not... It is that straightforward. The challenge is, of course, how do you store it? And that’s why you need long-term vision and planning for projects like Snowy Hydro 2.0. If you are going to have pumped hydro, and you are going to be pumping the water up the hill when the energy is cheap and then running it down the hill when the sun isn’t shining or the wind isn’t blowing, you’ve got to connect two dams, two huge dams, 20km apart with a mountain sort of inconveniently located between them, you’re going to have to do a lot of digging, and that requires planning and design.
So, I set out a whole agenda for an engineering and economics-based approach to energy nearly two years ago, and I spoke at the Press Club in early 2017, and that was the vision that I delivered on. So, you have Snowy Hydro 2.0 – the biggest renewable project in Australia’s history since Snowy 1. That is... You know, that will be built. It’s got a great...
TONY JONES
Sorry, Mike just said... Mike just said... I’ll bring you to a couple of facts here. Mike just said 100%...100% renewable – that’s baseload power he’s talking about.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Yeah.
TONY JONES
Achievable?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, theoretically, it is. Whether it is... You know, the question is, is that going to be the right mix?
TONY JONES
But is it a question of government will to make that happen? Because...
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, no, no. No, it’s not. It is... The economics is driving you there. There is no question, if you wanted to build a new, you know, dispatchable power station... If you said you wanted to deliver, you know, 1,000 megawatts of power continuously, and we wanted to do that from new sources, I do not believe that you would build, today, a coal-fired power station, regardless of issues about climate policy and carbon risk and all of those things – putting those to one side – because the renewable generation is so cheap, as long as you’ve got the ability to back it up, you can deliver that dispatchable power, or, as Scott Morrison would call it, “fair dinkum power”. And this is exactly what Snowy Hydro is doing. They haven’t built Snowy 2 yet, but, you know, they are buying... And Paul Broad, the chief executive, has been very open about this. They’re buying plenty of renewable power at around $40 a megawatt hour, and they confirm it for $70...and deliver it at $70 a megawatt hour, with their existing pumped hydro. I tell you, that is cheaper than a new coal-fired power station can deliver it for.
TONY JONES
OK. Just to go back to the question – can a group of rich mates get together and do what governments won’t do?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I’m not sure what you mean by that.
TONY JONES
That’s what he’s saying – “Get together with us, and we can produce 100% renewable energy for this country.” That was his claim in that question.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, if...
TONY JONES
Will you get onboard to do that?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
If Mike is inviting me to invest in a renewable energy project with, you know, storage or pumped hydro or whatever, then I would look at it on its merits, obviously.
TONY JONES
I don’t know if he’s asking you to invest.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I mean, I’m back in business. I’m retired from politics! I’m retired from politics, but, you know, I’m back in business, and I will be, no doubt... Lucy and I will be... Well, Lucy is, of course, at the GSC, so she’ll continue being the planning tsar of Sydney, I guess, but for my own part, I’m out of politics, and I will return to the business world. And I love nothing more than technology. I love new projects, I like new technology, and I love creating jobs. So, you know, I laid claim to creating, you know, a million jobs when I was prime minister. Of course, the creation was all done by people in business. Now, having served Australia in the parliament and as PM, I will now go back to creating jobs at the...you know, at a more hands-on level, in terms of business and investment.
TONY JONES
OK, let’s move on. Our next question is from Andy Kent.
ANDY KENT
Good evening. What would your young self make of your efforts as prime minister of Australia and your failure to stand up and do something to prevent the humanitarian disasters of Nauru and Manus?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well... Well, given, Andy, that the young are always very critical of the old, I’m sure my young self would find plenty of shortcomings in my old self.
TONY JONES
Moral shortcomings?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Certainly not. I’d just say... I’d just say this to you. The... What I was able... My goal as prime minister, with respect to the people that the Labor Party – Kevin Rudd – had put on Nauru and Manus, was to get them resettled, but in a way that did not get the people-smugglers back in business, right? Now, there was not one successful people-smuggling expedition to Australia during my time as prime minister. Not one. So, on that score, I was successful. I was able to negotiate a deal with Barack Obama to resettle refugees from Nauru and Manus into the United States. Rather controversially, and with some, uh, difficulty, I was able to hang onto that deal with President Trump. And, at this stage, between 400 and 500 people have been resettled. So, they are being resettled, so my track record, as far as Nauru and Manus is concerned, is I kept the boats stopped, I did not put anybody on Nauru and Manus, but I ensured that hundreds were taken off and resettled without getting the boats started again.
But, obviously, now, you know, the job is Scott Morrison’s, and what Scott has to do now is manage it and continue that momentum. And I know he has the same commitment and the same goal that I did, because, you know, Scott has a huge experience in this area. He was immigration minister, and he knows what needs to be done. But the one thing you don’t want to do is get the people-smugglers back in business, because we know what happened under Labor, and it’ll happen again. You had 50,000 unauthorised arrivals, and you had at least 1,200 deaths at sea. I don’t want that to happen again, and I don’t think anyone else really does. We’ve got to keep people safe, and we owe it to the people seeking to come to Australia to ensure that they come through the proper channels. We’re taking 15,000 or so refugees a year through proper channels. We took 12,000 additionally from the Syrian conflict zone. We have one of the most generous humanitarian programs in the world. But the only proviso is that the Australian government determines which refugees come into Australia – not the people-smugglers. And I think that’s what Australians expect.
TONY JONES
OK. We’re running out of time. We’ve got to move on. The next question is from Kavi Gowrishankar.
KAVI GOWRISHANKAR
Thanks, Tony. Thank you, Prime Minister, for your service. My question is...
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Hi.
KAVI GOWRISHANKAR
...do you have any regrets about bringing on the double dissolution, which saw the resurgence of parties like One Nation, and which clearly embolden the extreme minority in the Liberal Party, is what I think? I think it just took a handful of extreme elements in the Liberal Party to wreak so much havoc. So, in your opinion, how do you think we, as a country, should curb or stop this right-wing populism that seems to be growing in the rest of the world, in other countries? How do you think we should...? What should we be doing to stop and curb it right away?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well... It’s a good question, Kavi. I think the most important thing is to respect each other. The challenge within the Liberal Party is that the increasingly... You know, the right wing, and, of course, where you draw the line there... Let’s... I think we know who you’re talking about. ...are not prepared to accept the consensus.
You see, the fundamental premise of a political party is that you have a group of people with different backgrounds and different points of view, and they meet, and they debate issues, and then they reach a consensus and they say, “Alright, we’ll go along with it.” “You know, it’s not exactly what I want,” or, “I don’t entirely agree with it,” or, “I disagree with it, but I’ll go along with it.” What you’ve seen increasingly is the right saying, “If you don’t...” Even if they’re not in the majority, “If you don’t give us what we want, we’ll blow the show up.” And that is intimidating and bullying, and that was at the heart of the coup back in August. Now, that is a real threat to the Liberal Party. So, you know, whether it’s within the Liberal Party or within the nation, respect, mutual respect, that is the foundation of ours – the most successful multicultural society in the world.
Now, let me give you some good news, though, about why we are better off than the Americans in terms of politics. Firstly, we have compulsory voting. It’s a very good thing. Because that means that you don’t have to run off to the extremes to energise, you know, your base. Everyone has to vote, and the political debate is won and lost in the centre. And political parties that overlook that, just as I said earlier, are at a real risk of losing. You win in the centre. The second thing is that our...
TONY JONES
So shouldn’t you have governed from the centre...
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I did. But I did.
TONY JONES
...and turned your back on these small group of conservatives who seemed to dictate so much of what happened in terms of policy?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I don’t... Well, I’m not... I’m not sure... I don’t know what they dictated in terms of policy. I mean, ultimately you could say they dictated a leadership coup that saw me out of my job as PM, but...
TONY JONES
Well, that’s a pretty big one.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, it is, but the policies... And I certainly did have a policy of remaining prime minister. That was... But my... In terms of the policies I delivered, they were consistent with what we took to the election. You know, no-one accused me of breaking an election promise, literally. But can I just make another point? It’s very significant. Our House of Representatives electorates are determined independently by an Electoral Commission. So they’re not gerrymandered the way so many of them are in the United States, where so many of them are gerrymandered, so they either…can’t possibly be won by the opposite party. And that means, in order to get the preselection to win the primary, again, you’ve got to run off to the extreme. So I think, for those two institutional reasons alone, I think our democracy is more focused on the centre than it is in the US.
TONY JONES
Let’s go to a question on the US from Natasha Nguyen. Go ahead.
NATASHA NGUYEN
Good evening, Mr Turnbull, Tony. So, the US mid-term election results have just come out. It looks like the Democrats have taken the House, which means President Trump’s power has been reduced. I’m aware that you were able to establish a working relationship with the US, despite all the hardships, difficulties and controversies. However, with these results and the further difficulty for Trump to pass laws and bills, what do you think that will mean for Australia?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, look, I think the Australian relationship with the US is very, very strong. Presidents and, indeed, prime ministers – particularly prime ministers – come and go. But the... Perhaps a little more often than we’d like, in the case of prime ministers. But the relationship is very, very strong. You know, President Trump and I had some, uh, tough moments. But I was able to achieve the outcomes for Australia that I needed to achieve. And that was…you know, that’s my job. I mean, when you’re dealing with foreign governments, as the Australian prime minister, you are the advocate for Australia. You’ve only got one client – that’s Australia.
TONY JONES
Are you relieved that Trump’s power has been reined in somewhat due to these mid-term results?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I’ve made a practice, certainly when I was prime minister, and I think I’ll maintain it for a while yet, of not running a commentary on the politics of other countries. So, you know, the Americans have got their own democratic processes. I think some of our institutions are better than theirs. But they’ve made a decision, and you’re right... You know, the whole US Constitution is based on checks and balances, and it is very common in mid-term elections for the House to flip away from the governing party.
TONY JONES
OK. Next question from Tony Wang.
TONY WANG
Hello, Mr Turnbull. Considering the responsibility of ABC is holding the government accountable, why were you so hostile towards the ABC?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, thanks, Tony. I am a great... I’m a great friend of the ABC. I have... In fact, my grandfather, Oscar Lansbury, worked for the ABC at the time it was founded. In fact, he used to work for 2FC, which was...used to...which is now what’s called Radio National, in the days before it actually became part of the ABC. So I’ve got a long... My mother worked here. Got a long connection with the ABC.
My criticism of the ABC in recent years has been about only one thing – I have been very concerned about what I believe has been a deterioration in the quality of the journalism here, in the sense that there has been not enough accuracy and balance in the work of journalists here. So it’s not... I haven’t even complained... I haven’t complained about, you know, bias. A lot of politicians do. I’d given up on that years ago. You’ve got to be realistic. But I do think that now, more than ever, the ABC needs to adhere to its charter and its statutory obligation in its own act of delivering news and current affairs which is accurate and objective, consistent with the standards of objective journalism.
TONY JONES
Did you make phone calls or did you have meetings with the chairman, Justin Milne, and encourage him or urge him in any way to sack certain journalists?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Never. Never. No, absolutely not. There’s nothing...
TONY JONES
So you were shocked when you found him saying that? Not that you had said it, but that the government was so angry with certain journalists, they should sack them.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, I mean, the... All I can say... Again, I don’t want to run a commentary on Justin Milne, who...
TONY JONES
But could you have given him that impression in conversations?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
No. Look, absolutely not. My concern... There is nothing I’ve said to Justin Milne or to anybody else at the ABC that I haven’t said publicly, right? So my concern was about particular examples of really inaccurate reporting. And so, my affection for and respect for the ABC is so great that I want it to be its best self and to get its journalism right. So that’s my concern. I’ll tell you what I think the...
TONY JONES
So ABC funding continued on that, by the way, under you?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I think what the ABC needs to do, I think it needs to have...separate the role of managing director and editor-in-chief. I’ve suggested this publicly for years. And it should have a dedicated editor-in-chief, who has senior position, who reports to the board, and who is responsible for ensuring that the highest standards of journalism are maintained. Because I think now, more than ever, you know, in an age of fake news and the Twitterverse and all of that, we need the ABC to live up to its statutory charter of being accurate and objective.
TONY JONES
Many more questions on that, but we won’t have time for them. There’s time for one last question, actually. We’ve gone through that hour very quickly. It’s from Alison Batty.
ALISON BATTY
Uh, my question is, what sort of ex-prime minister do you want to be – a Julia, a Kevin or a Tony? But you must choose.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, one of the good things about being an ex-prime minister is that I don’t have to choose.
ALISON BATTY
No, you have to choose.
MALCOLM TURNBULL
No, I think... Look, I think the... I don’t... I’m not going to be, uh, you know, running a commentary on my successor. I’m not going to be, obviously, not in the parliament seeking to undermine him or overthrow him, like Kevin and Tony Abbott have done. I’m out of the parliament, I’m out of partisan politics. You know, I remain a member of the Liberal Party, a party I joined in 1973. I believe that, for all of its, you know, faults and foibles, the Liberal Party offers the best prospect for continued, strong economic growth in Australia. But, you know, my days as an active political participant have come to an end. And so I will return to the business sector and I’ll return to the company of my wife and children and grandchildren, which I’m looking forward to.
TONY JONES
So, last one from me – should those very difficult questions that you raised tonight, the unanswered questions about why you were sacked, should they resonate throughout the campaign up until the next election?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
Well, whether they should or not...
TONY JONES
Would you like them to?
MALCOLM TURNBULL
I won’t be drawn on that, but I think there’s a fair prospect that they might. You know, it is a question I get asked all the time. This is one of the good things, by the way, about being out of the country for six or seven weeks – being in New York – because people would say, “Oh, right, so you were prime minister of Australia? That’s great, good. So, what are you doing next?” Whereas here, everyone wanted to talk endlessly about the coup, and it’s actually quite painful to talk about, particularly when you don’t have the answers.
So, I think it is... Will it be an issue? Will it be the biggest issue? Will it be a big issue or a medium-sized issue? I don’t know. But I think Australians are entitled to know the answer. And they are... I think, you know, every member of parliament should be accountable for what they do, and that’s what parliament is all about – accountability. That’s why, when you vote, you know, you vote publicly. Everyone sees how you vote and it’s written down in Hansard. So I think those people who are responsible for taking a successful, competitive government and literally blowing it up need to have an explanation. But it’s not one that I can provide, because I cannot... I can’t... I can’t give an explanation other than to say, as far as I could see, it was madness. But, clearly, that’s pretty inadequate.
TONY JONES
That is all we have time for tonight. Please thank our special guest, Malcolm Turnbull.
[ENDS]
Sorry comments are closed.